Mick Harvey – Waves of ANZAC/The Journey - Interview

Mick Harvey © Alexander Hallag

We spoke with Mick Harvey about his new album Waves of ANZAC/The Journey. Waves of Anzac is the soundtrack of Sam Neills’ documentary Why Anzac With Sam Neill. The Journey is a four piece work in support of #KidsOffNauru a campaign for child refugees and people seeking asylum in Australia who, under Australia’s offshore processing regime, will be put on offshore detention. The conversation approached the ANZACs (Australian and New Zealand Army Corps), war, especially Word War I, refugees, Australia detention centres and more.

by Raquel Pinheiro

Waves of ANZAC

ANZAC Day is April 25th. The record came out April 17th. Is there a reason why it was not released on ANZAC Day?

Because April 25th. was a Saturday? Actually I doubt Mute even thought of it as they are English and wouldn’t know when Anzac Day is. I did notice the release date was set for near to Anzac Day but really, it was not important to make the release coincide.

Waves of ANZAC is the soundtrack of New Zealander actor/director/producer Sam Neill’s Why Anzac With Sam Neill documentary. What made you accept to write the score for the documentary?

Because I’m interested in the subject matter and I like working on films when I know I am going to be allowed to develop my own ideas.

Currently how much meaning does ANZAC Day hold in Australia and New Zealand?  How does its commemoration differ from Remembrance Day, November 11 (Armistice Day)? Is remembering ANZAC Day still relevant for Australians and New Zealanders?

It’s probably the most important day of remembrance. More important than Armistice Day for Australians and New Zealanders.

How was ANZAC Day celebrated this year, under lockdown?

It was commemorated at home, yes.

Anzac, the landing 1915 by George Washington Lambert, 1920-1922 (oil with pencil on wood panel). Art photo courtesy of the Australian War Memorial.

April 25 is the day of the ANZACs’ first landing at ANZAC Cove, Gallipoli, Turkey in 1915, during World War I. The landing was the beginning of an arduous, if not disastrous, path that would culminate in the evacuation of the Allied forces by December 1915. On ANZAC COVE alone, things got terribly confusing from the star with ANZAC suffering thousands of casualties. Isn’t it somehow odd that ANZAC Day is the day the ANZACs suffered such misfortune?

No, I don’t think so. It is rather more odd that it was an invasion of another sovereign country’s territory, which is hardly something to be proud of but that is not really considered. It is more concerned with the personal sacrifices and I must say you seem to be mixing up notions of commemoration with celebration. It is not a celebration.

The first theme from Waves of ANZAC/The Journey I listened to was The Somme, in the day Mute uploaded to YouTube. I found it striking. A couple of days later, I listened to the whole album. It took me more than two and a half hours to do so. I kept going back and forward on the tracks. Afterwards, I had to go for a very long walk to process the feelings, emotions and images brought by the music.

The Wasteland © Raquel Pinheiro (watercolour, barley, red wine, crayon on paper)

Seldom does a record affect me in such a way. Were, or are you, aware of the sheer magnitude of the music contained in the album? Of how it can so deeply affect the listener? Are you in some way touched by its music and, or themes, or, as its musical creator, you’re emotionally detached from it?

Well, it’s difficult to know or anticipate the effect one’s own music will have on someone else. 

Certainly, during the process of writing and arranging one is searching for powerful or effective solutions and in that process one is also hoping affected by what is happening as that is an indicator you have hit on something that might be working but generally you have to move on from that condition and just keep working. Obviously it is hoped that the final result will be impactful. Ultimately I guess I have to be very happy you were affected in this way as it indicates some level of success in my endeavour to provide an emotional soul for what is a very moving and powerful subject matter.

Listening to the soundtrack separated from the documentary – that I only deliberately watched a month or so afterwards – makes it stand out and have an emotional depth that is diluted in the documentary under the narration, the sound of the waves, etc. Had I only seen the documentary I would have most likely forgot the soundtrack. Yet, on its own, it lives, breathes, overwhelms, amazes. Do you relate to it, to how different it sounds and feels, within the documentary and outside of it?

The nature of any soundtrack music is to support or embellish the film it is made for. Morricone does not subscribe to the notion that you should not notice the soundtrack and believes it should be really loud. I don’t disagree with that idea, but it’s not the function I like most of my music to have. I prefer the traditional, conservative position on the function of film music. At the same time, I am sometimes aware that pieces I have produced stand up well in their own right. When I come to put together a compilation of film music works they are the ones that are chosen to be included. It has a certain inevitable logic.

In the documentary, Sam Neill speaks of how unlucky the ANZACs were in France/The Somme. The big losses, Australia not being keen on conscription, etc. Do you think the complications the ANZACs faced were connected to their countries being so far away, or was it due to poor and confusing leadership, ideas and tactics, and a not so good strategy?

The complications or difficulties the ANZACs faced were much the same as troops from any other country faced during WW1.

Wounded troops on the beach at Anzac Cove on 25 April 1915. Men of the AAMC are treating some of the wounded. Photo courtesy of  the Australian War Memorial.

The ANZACs come to fight many thousands of kilometers from home because their countries were part of the British Empire. Sailing from so far away in ships packed with men must have been daunting. Arriving at Gallipoli and being met with all the difficulties must have had a tremendous psychological effect on the troops. Do you know what was the mood like in Australia and New Zealand 105 years ago? Did news of what was really happening reached back home? That you know of, are there reports from soldiers telling of their real feelings?

News of the casualties at Gallipoli did not reach Australia for some time. No doubt there was some news imparted by telegram messages but a combination of the war information machine and the difficulty of collating all the details meant that the full casualty lists were not published for, I believe, a couple of weeks. My grandmother told us that on the day the papers published those lists people were crying in the streets, so yes, the impact was devastating. As for soldiers telling their real feelings….this happened on occasion but for the most part what I can work out is that it was much later, in the 50s and 60s. For the most part I am consistently given to understand that soldiers did not like to talk about their experiences from WW1.

Waves of ANZAC goes through World War I, World War II and the Vietnam War. Music wise, some of the most intense, disruptive even, themes are In The Archives and The Aftermath. Are war archives and the aftermath of a war more disturbing than war itself?

They can be for those who remain because they are the reminder of those things and are tinged with melancholy and the memory of loss and the ongoing disbelief at what happened. At the time I suspect people are being more pragmatic and aware of the need to survive. Though I doubt the aftermath could be more disturbing in itself than being in the thick of the action.

Reading the track list, I was reminded that Australia and New Zealand took part in the Vietnam War. At the time, both countries' involvement in Vietnam caused controversy at home. Does that persist? Are Australian and New Zealander, Vietnam War veterans seen and treated differently than other veterans?

These days they are mostly respected and understood as having taken part in a misunderstood and unfortunate conflict. They are mostly quite old now so they are also generally respected as war veterans without other negative associations.

Vietnam © Raquel Pinheiro (crayon on paper)

Vietnam is a terrifying, harrowing track. One can feel napalm falling, the jungle, the shattering of things and people, the despair, death. It goes up, explodes, then, ends with utmost sadness. Was that, the description of the thunder of war and its devastating effects, followed by a death’s silence what you envisioned when you wrote it?

Umm, I think in my mind’s eye I keep seeing film taken by US troops from planes of them carpet bombing forests.

When we interview you in November 2019, when asked about your interest in World War I you told us “I’m not sure why it holds such a fascination for me, but it’s something I keep coming back to. I had already read quite a bit about WW1 before I even learnt about my Grandfather’s generation’s involvement in it. That just made it that little, but more personal”.

Since, have you become more aware of why World War I holds such a fascination for you? Have you learned more about your Grandfather’s generation involvement in it?

No, my understanding of what interests me about it in particular remains something I can’t define. I always understood the involvement of that generation in WW1 but I do now know a lot more about my ancestors specific stories. But that is just a personal view into specific events - it doesn’t make me more or less interested in WW1 in general.

A while ago, on ANZAC Day, you posted a photo of your great uncle (Rev. Fred Harvey) and grandfather (Ted Harvey). The caption said your grandfather had landed at Anzac Cove with the 2nd Battalion AIF on ANZAC Day 1915. Do you know how your grandfather's campaign went? Do you know how much he changed between that photo, taken in 1914, and his return to Australia?

Well, the outcome of the campaign is clear. You have described it in an earlier question. My Grandfather lost half a leg after being injured at the Somme and was sent back to Australia in 1917. He looks different in the photos when he is returning home, but that’s not so surprising as he is 22 by then and was only 19 in the photo with his brother.

Rev. Fred Harvey and Pt. E.T.A. (Ted) Harvey photographed in late 1914 in Sydney. 

Photo courtesy of Mick Harvey.

Do you still read about World War I ? If so, what have you been reading about it?

Sometimes, yes. I have a novel I will be reading soon called ‘The Middle Parts of Fortune’ by Frederic Manning and not long ago I finally watched ‘All Quiet on the Western Front’, the movie from 1930 which, apart from some corny acting by the lead, was amazing. The interest persists.

While reading a feature about T.E. Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia) I came across an Australian Camel Corps (The Imperial Camel Corps Brigade - ICCB) in Palestine, during World War I - The ICCB served elsewhere in the Middle East as well. Have you ever heard of them? There is a small propaganda film, directed by Lowell Thomas, called With Allenby in Palestine where they can be seen: 
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060000120

Sounds interesting, I might check it out. I’m aware the Australians were in Palestine but I’ve not heard of the Camel Corps.

After two albums of yours about war/World War I - Waves Of ANZAC and The Fall and Rise of Edgar Bourchier And The Horrors of War (2018) and being part of P.J. Harvey’s Let England Shake (2011), another record about war and World War I, do you think that, music wise, you will still be working on the subject? If so, would you consider doing a record for which you would write the lyrics?

Not in the near future, but you never know. If something interesting comes up…..


Others wars, namely World War II and the Vietnam War, both featured on Waves of ANZAC seem to hold less interest to you. If so, why? What about more recent wars, like the Iraqi or Afghanistan ones?

I don’t know why not. It’s something about the human scale of WW1. The fact that it was not really on a human scale anymore but the people involved were still being used as if it was - the people involved were simply overwhelmed. In later wars the role of the humans has evolved. 
I am interested in WW2 and have read some things about it, in particular the one volume history by Max Hastings, and in some ways it is a totally different type of event.

Men of the 53rd Battalion in a trench in their front line a few minutes before the launching of the attack in the battle of Fromelles by Charles Henry Lorking, 19 July 1916. Photo courtesy of Australian War Memorial.

On P.J. Harvey’s Let England Shake (2011), a record about war, you sing the male vocals on The Colour Of The Earth, that tells the story of an ANZAC’s soldier called Louis that runs from the line and disappears. Were you already interested in the stories of the ANZACs and war, especially WWI, by then? Did being part of that album somehow influenced you on, or for, Waves of Anzac and, later, for when you teamed up with Christopher Richard Barker for The Fall and Rise of Edgar Bourchier And The Horrors of War (2018)?

My interest in WW1 goes back to my early 20s. Being involved in Let England Shake had no bearing whatsoever on the Edgar Bourchier album or Waves of Anzac.

Have you ever attended a dawn commemorative ANZAC service at ANZAC Cove? Or elsewhere? If so, can you describe the experience?

No, I’m not interested in that kind of thing. I’m not into public commemorations which all too often spill over into nationalistic sentiments and related thinking. Not that ANZAC Day is designed or intended to do that. It just has aspects which make me feel uncomfortable.

Artificial poppy : Lest We Forget 1949 (cooper badge). Image courtesy of the Australian War Memorial.

In War, a song written by Norman Whitfield and Barry Strong for Motown in 1969, made famous the next year by Edwin Starr, the lyrics read “War, uhu, yeah/What is it good for/Absolutely nothing…” Do you share the sentiment that war is good for nothing?

Pretty much.

The Journey

Do you, somehow, equate the journey of the refugees and asylum seekers to the one of the ANZACs? I'm thinking about the sea journey, but the thought can be extended to any other commonalities. Also, the first track of The Journey is called Conflict. A war is, of course, a conflict. In that alone, there is already similarity.

I think to conflate the two issues is problematic. It was a common theme in terms of what artwork I could use. The plight of refugees is fundamentally different to the experience of soldiers, especially volunteer soldiers, in that they are trying to escape conflict. The point I am making by using that title is that nearly 100% of refugees attempting to enter Australia as “illegal immigrants” by the definition of the Australian Government are actually genuine refugees who are fleeing civil wars and other similar events - the conflict - who should be given asylum under international law, regardless of how they arrive in the country.

The second track is named Capture (Not Real Refugees). Again, capture happens to soldiers, in the context of refugees, what does capture (being captured?) means to you? Why (Not Real Refugees), what does it mean?

Well, these people are basically detained and put in detention facilities which are really just offshore, open jails in places like Nauru and Manus Island. So they are, quite specifically, captured. The current Australian Government took to calling these asylum seekers from conflict zones “not real refugees” when they referred to them in some attempt to stigmatise them and keep public opinion on the side of the government’s policy. It was clearly and demonstrably a propaganda exercise in simple disinformation as these people are almost exclusively “real refugees” which Australia should be taking care of. That’s why I gave that movement that title.

At Sea © Raquel Pinheiro (acrylic & watercolour on paper) *

Since you wrote The Journey how has the situation for those in Nauru, Manus Island and Christmas Island changed, if at all?

Not really, many of them, maybe a bit over half of those there in 2018, have been relocated to the United States under a bizarre deal which was made with Obama but many of them - nearly 50% as I can best work out - remain in the detention centres.

According to the links below, last year, there was a suicide spike among asylum seekers in Manus Island and Australia’s Offshore Detention was considered unlawful by a International Criminal Court Prosecutor. Conditions there must be quite grim. What is the sentiment in Australia regarding the conditions refugees and asylum seekers are met with? What is yours?

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/australia-s-refugee-policy-is-out-of-step-with-global-standards-and-breaks-international-law-report

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/feb/15/australias-offshore-detention-is-unlawful-says-international-criminal-court-prosecutor

Most Australians have been drawn into pretty simplistic protectionist ideas about these unfortunate people and through a campaign of basic disinformation they have been misled into thinking these people pose a threat to our sovereignty. It’s all tied up with a complex piece of nonsense regarding people smugglers and that this is, ultimately, the humanitarian option. But the whole thing began with misinformation - there was never really a problem in the first place with the numbers of refugees coming to Australia but once the conservative elements in the Australian Government realised the issue had traction they kept using it as a fear policy to help them shore up votes and stay in power.

I fully agree that people smugglers should be discouraged and that that activity should be shut down if possible and indeed, the actions the Australian Government has been taking has seen people-smuggling pretty much disappear in relation to Australia. But in the end effect it’s all a lie. They say they are trying to stop “moneyed-up-queue-jumpers” who just want to come to Australia for a better quality of life but in fact THOSE people have been arriving illegally at airports in huge numbers for years. The people risking their lives on boats after escaping conflict zones are genuine refugees who do not have access to apply for a visa to Australia under the normal processes in their country of origin and are forced to tale extreme action to protect themselves and their families. Huge numbers of these people have spent years, or are still in, detention camps in shocking conditions. To punish innocent and desperate people is just not the right method to deal with people smugglers. Two wrongs don’t make a right as the saying goes. But it does seem to be a vote winner so it remains what they call a “political football”.

Christmas Island, Manus Island and Nauru where the detention centres are located at. 

With the pandemic, have conditions for refugees and asylum seekers in Australia improved or worsened? In Portugal, immigrants with pending request were temporarily legalized so that they could benefit from our National Health Service and other Social Security benefits. It was considered safer for everyone to do so.

They are relatively safe as thus far the islands where the detention centres are virus free. Papua New Guinea had some cases, but they have all recovered.

If refugees and asylum seekers are allowed to stay/live in Australia do they integrate in the community? Overhaul, how do Australians treat refugees and asylum seekers/former refugees and asylum seekers?

For the most part they settle in quite well. I suspect, as with all people who have arrived here over the last 200 years, the generation which first arrives retains many of their connections with their homeland but even the first generation born here is more interested in the prospects of the new world. Geographically it simply feels like a world apart here and there is. o sense of needing to hang on to old prejudices and divisions. Australians in general, however, can be as racist as anyone else AND as welcoming. It all depends.

The last track of The Journey, that is also the album’s closing one, is called Hope. You wrote it hoping the plight of refugees and asylum seekers had an humane outcome. Now, hope seems to be what many think the whole world needs and others seem to have completely run out of it, diving into depression and pessimism. Where do you currently stand on hope, be it for those detained in Australia Offshore Detention centers or for the world as a whole?

Mostly I just think if the world became fairer and there was more economic equality most of these problems would disappear.

Hope © Raquel Pinheiro (acrylic on paper)  *

In All Art is Propaganda, George Orwell said that “In our age there is no such thing as "keeping out of politics." All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.” Do you think artists have the duty, especially in times like these, or at least should, bring up social issues and, in their art, make political commentary and, or statements? And that politics is a “mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia”?

I have not read “All Art is Propaganda” so I may be speaking out of turn about things which he covers in his book but George Orwell does have a tendency to make sweeping statements. To begin with if he actually argues the idea in the title, that all art is propaganda, then this is a highly  selective starting point in that it refers only to the artist’s connection to art when it is released or made public. 

It does not account for the “receivers” of art and the impact it has on people in their lives nor does it show any care for the many people who make art or, indeed, creative crafts, for their own enjoyment.

One can well argue that all issues are political issues but to assert that it is “a mass of lies…etc” is to limit politics to the institutional as well as to misunderstand many politicians genuine commitment to public service blah, blah, blah. Orwell wrote some good books and is an interesting thinker but seems to spend far too much time wrapped up in his own narcissistic, personal totalitarianism - in the perceived greatness of his own thinking or experience. People are also capable of great kindness and generosity, in my opinion.

Artists only have the responsibility to keep doing what they are driven to do not what outside influences or influencers might expect of them. All art has a political aspect even when not in the least political - that in itself is a position.

Do you have, or had (since now everything changed) plans to play 
Waves of ANZAC/The Journey live?

No, I have no plans for that. Perhaps it could form part of a program of my film music in some future outing, but an arts council or festival would have to back such a show as it would be expensive, complicated and risky to attempt using only my own resources.

* Hope and At Sea were not painted based on The Journey. Hope pre-dates it an and the pandemic. At Sea, come afterwards, but it was not until I was editing the interview it come to me it actually reminded being at sea. Hence, the name.