Pop Crimes – The Songs of Rowland S. Howard

Rowland S. Howard

Pop Crimes – The Songs of Rowland S. Howard are five performances of Rowland S. Howard’s songs, a commemoration of the 10^th anniversary of his departure and of his 60^th birthday (Rowland was born 24 October 1959). They will happen January 26th (Sunday) at Corner Hotel, Melbourne, Australia and February 07th (Friday) at  L’Astrolabe, Orléans; 08th (Saturday) at La Maroquinerie, Paris and 09th (Sunday) at Ubu, Rennes in France and on the 12th (Wednesday) at Southbank, London, UK with Genevieve McGuckin, Harry Howard, J.P. Shilo, Mick Harvey, Conrad Standish, Jonnine Standish, Edwina Preston, Bobby Gillespie & Lydia Lunch (Europe) and more.

We spoke with Genevieve McGuckin, Harry Howard, J.P. Shilo and Mick Harvey about Rowland, his music, songs and a number of other things. And end up with an amazing set of answers. Prepare for a long, in-depth reading of all (or almost all) things Rowland. The interviews, Harry Howard’s one aside, are in alphabetical order. Given the nature of the interviews, some questions are the same to all musicians. We have also done minimal edit to the replies (the interviews were conducted by e-mail) in order to preserve the writing style and personality of each interviewee.

Interviews by Amândio Barbosa, Guilherme Lucas, Raquel Pinheiro and William Wernham.

Harry Howard © Barry C. Douglas

Harry Howard

Who come up with the Pop Crimes Tribute idea and why?

I’m not sure who had the initial thought. The idea was literally to pay tribute to and remember and celebrate Rowland’s greatness as a person and a musician. That’s my view on why.

Ten years have passed since your dear brother's early departure. Glancing at your common past, not only as two exceptional musicians, but above all as accomplices souls, can you share what is most relevant and vital about your relationship?

Rowland and I had a unique connection. Not a better or deeper connection to other important people in our lives but unique. We knew each other from the beginning and we loved each other.

Do you, somehow, feel the weight of being Rowland’s brother?

I know what you are getting at. We all have a weight of our own. Rowland was razor sharp and very talented, sometimes he intimidated me to be quite honest!

What is the more unbearable thing for you to live in this world without Rowland S. Howard?

Rowland is always with me but I miss just being able to ask him how he is and hearing his latest tales. He was a wonderful story teller. He was funny and always amazed by the doings of others. I miss his sense of disbelief, his jokes and his perspective. It was fun to be a part of his strange world.

As a musician and songwriter what have you learned with Rowland? And what have you taught him?

I learnt countless things from Rowland. I was thinking the other day about Several Sins which we co-wrote and how he showed me that song writing really wasn’t that hard or mysterious, that if you had an idea it was actually quite easy to write a good song. Good ideas don’t come cheaply of course.

When you’re playing Rowland’s songs do you feel them as his brother, as a musician, as a fan, all of the above or something else?

All of the above. In some unconvincing personal way, I get to play at being him also.

Do you approach Rowland’s songs differently than you approach someone else’s songs?

Hmm I don’t often approach other people’s songs really. It’s hard. Everyone who is any good has a different musical sensibility, rhythmically and melodically so to take them work on convincingly is a challenge, I find. With Rowland there are other layers of complication for me but also other layers of understanding, which helps.

Rowland was already a living legend, but his departure sparked increased interest in his musical legacy in the younger generations, and was cited by many musicians as a maximum influence. Do you think this is only due to a rare and magnetic combination of music and lyrics, or his iconographic style of sheer abandonment on stage, wielding her Fender Jaguar with an eternal cigarette in the corner of his mouth, wrapped in a vortex of deliciously overwhelming feedback also contributes to the consolidation of this status as one of the greatest in rock 'n' roll history?

Yeah of course. He was a hell of a stylish fellow visually. That’s quite important in itself especially in combination with music. A visual and sonic impact that inform each other. It’s all a language. It all sends signals. Communication is subtle and complex rather wondnerful.

                                                                 Rowland S. Howard

In this concert series of Pop Crimes: A Tribute To Rowland. S. Howard, and doing justice to the same performances that took place October 2014 in Melbourne, there are two songs of his sung by you, These Immortal Souls' Marry Me (Lie! Lie!) and The Golden Age of Bloodshed. It’s curious that although the bulk of the songs are vocalized by J. P. Shilo in a timbre very similar to your brother, it’s with you that almost replicated his voice. We'll say it's a genetic thing. What is the significance of representing him in this tribute to his music and memory?

Yes, there is a genetic thing of course. In These Immortal Souls Rowland always wanted me to do vocal backing parts to strengthen different parts of the songs. Unfortunately,I didn’t have the skills or confidence at the time to carry that off while playing bass. That was quite frustrating for Rowland. I have never been a highly skilled musician in any way except perhaps creatively. It's strange to have some of his voice in a way but our registers are actually slightly different despite the similarities.

Which are your Rowland favourite songs?

There are so many I like it is really hard to say. I have been learning Still Burning for the upcoming Melbourne show. It’s a fantastic song! Rowland has a large enough body of work that you can flit around (like a moth) and have different favourites at different times. Teenage Snuff Film is definitely his strongest LP for me.

What Pop Crimes, if any, did Rowland commit?

He exposed pop for the lousy cut rate, cheapened shallow, travesty that it really is.

No, I don’t actually believe that, fully. Although on one level it’s true but pop music can of course be pure genius as well. I think he shared that view.

Rowland is being complex. His music is never just pop music as in it’s never easy as pop’s reputation claims it should be (his songs are “much too slow and much too long”). And neither is it ever really popular. Rowland is wittily criticising his own work with the title in a way that also enhances and compliments it by branding it in his own particular ‘cool’ way. There you go, that's what I'll say.

At the end of Autoluminescent J.P. Shilo recites from Etceteracide, Rowland’s unpublished novel. Are there plans to bring it to print? 

There is a publishable edit of Etceteracide. If we decide to publish it then it will certainly go to print.

Did you, or anyone else in the Pop Crimes shows, contributed to Something Flamable, Gerard Elson’s biography about Rowland? Is the book still going to be published?

Gerard spoke to me and a lot of other people as part of his research process. I’m not sure where he is with that project but it is quite ambitious in scope.

All Rowland fans have been in a state of turmoil since you recently announced on your Facebook page the book edition of This Guitar Belongs To Rowland S. Howard. Since you are the editor, can you tell us more about it, the process of selecting the photos and any texts it may contain, as there is a great deal of secrecy about it at the moment?

It’s not meant to be secretive, sorry that’s my fault as I’m not experienced at publishing anything myself and I’ve been uncertain about what to say about it and what to show of it. Everyone will know what it is soon enough and they can make up their own minds about it.

It is purely a book of images which were taken especially for this one book. It is a detailed record of a culturally facinating object. There aren’t any words, the pictures say more than enough on their own.

Is there anything from the tribute shows, guests aside, that you can unveil for us?

The shows will be great. Expect a big name guest in London (I’m told).

What is your fondest memory of Rowland?

My remembrance of what it felt like to be beside Rowland, to be his friend and his brother and his colleague. It’s an irreplaceable feeling.

Do you have any Rowland unheard stories you would like to share? 

That’s a bit hard after answering the previous question.

Rowland told once that when he was sleeping on the couch at our sister Angela’s flat that a moth flew into his ear. He described the sound of huge beating wings magnified by proximity “it was as if a giant bird was in the room”. Eventually he had a thought and poured olive oil into his ear to drown out the wings and drown the moth. The wings stopped but he said the moth never came out, that it was embalmed in his ear. We sat there, half grinning and contemplated the moth that slept in Rowland’s ear.

Genevieve McGuckin © L.J.Spruyt Photography

Genevieve McGuckin

As a musician and songwriter what have you learned with Rowland? And what have you taught him?

What Rowland taught me. That writing songs from your own emotions moves people far more. Be yourself truly and eventually the world will catch up to you. What did I teach Rowland? I don’t really know. He taught me a million things. Oh, I taught him how to make corn muffins!

During all these years, in which we have been reading and listening to some of your interviews in the print and radio press, we always got the feeling and the perception of the love and affection that you have always dedicated to Rowland S. Howard, in many moving moments and of unwavering complicity. As a keyboard player (we also know that you play guitar and possibly some other instruments), your collaborations are also mixed with RSH music (shared only with Mick Harvey), which makes you a musician of choice in his musical writing. What was it like working with him? Are there any episodes that you can tell us that are representative of how your creative chemistry developed, both in rehearsals and in the studio?

Working with Rowland was a fantastic experience.

He pushed the boundaries, he pushed me. It could be demanding but it was also fun, and I have not one single regret. Recording Some Velvet Morning with Rowland and Lydia Lunch was my first time in a studio. Knowing I’d be nervous Rowl said “Ok Gen, just play along to the track a few times, work something out, we won’t even be listening in here. I’d played through it once when Rowl said “Ok, come and listen”. That was it. They’d recorded me playing and it was bizarre but great.

So our creative chemistry sometimes involved trickery.

No, we just understood each other in some fundamental way, talked things through, and encouraged each other.

Literature (is) and was also a common passion, mentioned many times in your interviews. We realize that reading inspires for life (and is often much larger than life). Was literature just a comfortable and inspiring extension for both of you to improve your creative process while working the songs, or did it serve as a safe harbor to regain strength from the strenuous creative process with regard to musical composition?

Neither Rowland or I could have existed without books. At his funeral, a friend described Rowland as being like a wicked fairytale! Perfect. We were both greedy readers, and I still am. Whether for entertainment, discovery, curiosity, distraction amusement inspiration, you learn about things you could never experience in your own time and place. Diving into the story of another life in a parallel universe is bliss.

And yes. A safe harbour too.

Watching the 15 LJ Spruyt videos on Youtube, about the 2014 RSH tribute concert in Melbourne, which will be extended to Europe in the coming weeks, you are the musician, along with JP Shilo, which remains stoically on stage in the interpretation of the whole set of songs of the show (except for Wayward Man), while all the other musicians take turns by theme. Your performance is extremely solid and precise, becoming fundamental in the dynamics of all songs. How are you facing this moment of return to the stage and the big shows?

I’m facing it with gleeful anticipation, the odd anxious flutter. I can’t wait to play live again. Being on stage for nearly every song is exhausting and uplifting - I get so completely lost in it. Playing guitar on Sleep Alone is just fantastic!

On a 2013 Q&A on a Rowland Tribute page you said that you refused to sing your own songs. On the 2014 Melbourne RSH Tribute Concert you’re playing keyboards. Will you venture to sing in one, or more, of this new Pop Crimes Tribute shows?

Probably. Not.

Do you dislike your own voice? Do you feel it would not do justice to yours, Rowland’s or someone else’s songs?

I used to be scathing about my own voice, (due no doubt to all manner of tangled neuroses). I’m far more self-forgiving these days. Never say never.

On the same Q&A you said Dead Radio is one Rowland song you know was written about you, or partly about you. Is it hard to been on stage when the song is played? How do you feel when Dead Radio comes on, be in on the Radio or on the shows?

No, not anymore. The words used to affect me more in the 90’s. Especially after hearing a woman in the audience wonder out loud “Who IS this woman who keeps breaking Rowland’s heart?” Her friend piped up “Yes. I want to kill her!” That happened more than once. I’d tell Rowland but he’d just laugh and say “all the more reason to write your own songs Gen”.

I always thought the words were fantastic. The ”You don’t get any older” line grows on me.

There is a still unconvinced market in promoting an RSH brand image, but with a huge financial potential that encompasses: from a Corey Duffel who “signs” an RSH skateboard to the RSH guitar pedal from the Reuss brand, through the RSH guitar strap… not to mention the Fender Jaguar guitar and the Fender Twin Reverb amplifier, which many musicians get in an inspirational fashion way in their honor, and who have gone farther from having models of RSH signature in the near future. What's your comment about this more commercial reality of his legacy?

The skateboard, the pedal and the guitar strap have all been done with our

permission.Though too many further Rowland gizmos might muddy the waters and end up lessening the impact of his legacy. Rowland himself was not really concerned with the merchandise part of music life.

That said, we are about to flood the world with highly collectable Rowland T-shirts, badges etc. More Teenage Snuff Film vinyls.

What is your opinion about the importance of RSH music nowadays? Do you think it will continue to be relevant to the future generations of music lovers and musicians, within the niche of alternative rock music, for decades to come?

Absolutely. New generations keep discovering him. Good music never dies.

Rowland S. Howard © Tony Mott

Why have These Immortal Souls, a fabulous band with two fantastic albums, amazing live, ended without reaching great public glory and why?

Brilliant question! Thank you! We hopped into the wrong tardis, moved continents, lost our record company...

“These immortal souls of ours. We take a pen to our lives. And a knife to our lies. Lost in a love of ourselves”. Do you agree and subscribe to it? 

The first three lines yes. The Lost in a Love of Ourselves? Thank God, No. Not for a very long time.

Does it ever get tiring doing what we’re doing, talking about Rowland?

Yes, of course. The memories are much easier to pull out than to put back. I wake up later, gnawing over something I should have/shouldn’t have/ said. Maybe a different image of Rowland gets pinned up in my mind.

What Pop Crimes, if any, did Rowland commit?

He saw Pop Crimes all around him. In the music world. In the state of the world.

The politics, the populism, the blatant unfairness. The physical state he was in.

Which are your Rowland favourite songs?

Kick the Can, Shut me Down, Exit Everything, Ave Maria, Autoluminescent,

Golden Age of Bloodshed, Sleep Alone.

What is your fondest memory of Rowland?

Sorry, I have to keep something for myself.

Do you have any Rowland unheard stories you would like to share?

Sorry I don’t have time. I’m late for rehearsal!

J.P.Shilo © L.J.Spruyt Photography

J.P. Shilo

You’ve possibly already mentioned it in past interviews, but we are not aware of it. We would like to know under which conditions the first personal contact with Rowland occurred. All we know is that there was a time when he was the producer of your band's - Hungry Ghosts - album (Hungry Ghosts LP, 1999). That seems to be the official time for a very fruitful friendship and collaboration between the two of you… But before that, in what context did the initial contact occur?

When I was in my early teens, I remember he appeared out of nowhere and sat down opposite me on a tram in Melbourne. I definitely knew who he was, (I had developed a very early appreciation of The Birthday Party), though I doubt Rowland would have even noticed my presence, that may have been exactly why he came and perched there, to be unknown.

I remember subtly observing him throughout the journey. Wondering what song he was tapping his fingers along to in his head. Though chose not to engage in conversation, for fear he would fly away.

Fast forward a few more years and at Birdland Studios, I was handed a list of names who I would like to produce the Hungry Ghosts album, Rowland’s name immediately stood out. Within a few weeks, we were in discussions together, how we would like the record to sound. We hit it off immediately, what a relief. In hindsight, it feels rather poignant that he should help create my first record, and that I should help to create his last.

As a musician and songwriter what have you learned with Rowland? And what have you taught him?

I really feel I only ever learned from Rowland. Without a doubt, he was the coolest, with impeccable taste. Unpredictably enthusiastic about all kinds of Art & Culture, on many levels. He was kind-hearted, quick-witted, highly intelligent and always classy. I guess as far as music goes, I probably learned from him the “Less is More” rule.

To be honest I can’t imagine I taught him anything. We shared likes and interests, movies we’d seen, books we’d read, etc. but I doubt I ever actually taught him anything.

He was very inspiring to be around and always encouraged me to experiment with my own styles and follow whatever interested me. Sometimes I’d be playing something, and he’d be looking over my shoulder to see how I was making that sound, like the time we were recording Hungry Ghosts track, Blood, I was playing the guitar with a violin bow, something he’d never tried, but did to tremendous effect, (so good in fact, that it is his take we used on that recording) https://hungry-ghosts.bandcamp.com/track/blood

At best I probably entertained/amused/surprised him – during the Pop Crimes sessions for example – he and Mick and Brian were putting down the basic tracks to Wayward Man, I was in the kitchen of the studio scraping a mirror in time with a plastic cup… He laughed and thought it was such a hideous sound but fit perfectly in the song, and we quickly recorded it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K21XdpWNncw

I think he was probably most impressed by the fact that my music (and approach) sounded nothing really like his, and that I made no real effort to do so. Perhaps that’s why our connection was so complementary and lasting.

Do you approach Rowland’s songs differently than you approach someone else’s songs?

With regard to these particular “tribute” shows, I would of course say yes. Now that Rowland is unfortunately no longer around to perform these songs, my role is very different. When he was alive, I was playing my own parts in the arrangements. Now I have had to learn the songs from a completely different perspective.

I had never actually attempted to play any of Rowland’s parts before I was asked to be involved in these “tribute” shows. I mean I absolutely adore it, but his style and sound seemed unfathomable - beyond replication, like it wasn’t even possible to play it on a guitar! Haha. The ringing shrieks, that barbed-wire twang – there never really seemed to be any traditional or definitive chords being played – so I never even tried.

But saying that, I have spent many, many years absorbing his music as well as helping to create it, but more from a perspective as if it were a shared language, so I understand it fluently, and it does come quite naturally to me.
Rowland’s style of song-writing was very idiosyncratic, so it has to be approached differently, not only in the techniques, but also the tools used to execute it faithfully. I am very grateful to Anders Reuss for creating his RSH signature pedal, based on the MXR Distortion + & Blue Box that made Rowland’s signature sound.

In recent years, I have also been asked to do recordings and performances in honour of other artists who have passed away and whom I admire and have had an impact on me – like the Jeffrey Lee Pierce Sessions Project – and also with The Triffids and the songs of David McComb.

It doesn’t really interest me to pay tribute to those who are still alive. It seems kind of ridiculous, when they are completely capable of “blowing their own trumpet”. The difference is, with these sorts of projects, it feels like a way of keeping their spirit and their songs alive.

I do take great delight in being able to decipher & match tones/sounds, it’s a challenge to crack the code. 😉

But in essence, from my perspective I would say I generally approach performing from exactly the same space whenever/whatever I play. It all comes from the same source.

Rowland S. Howard & J.P. Shilo (pen and ink) © Gary Alford Art

Back in 2011 Mick Harvey told Louder Than War that you are able to copy Rowland’s guitar playing. Is that true? If so, why do you think you can do it?

I’ve not read that interview so am not sure of the context of those words, but Mick’s statement doesn’t necessarily reference what the role encompasses to channel his style.

Rowland was an incredibly efficient guitarist, so as far as “copying” notes goes, that isn’t a particularly challenging job. If Mick was referring to my ability to inhabit the style of Rowland’s playing, then yes perhaps - I have absorbed his music for some time now, since I was young, so it comes very naturally to invoke an impression of it.

But really it is what’s behind a fist that makes the punch. Notes and sounds are only one part of that equation.

Is it strange to step into Rowland’s shoes and play his songs before an audience, especially when you’re playing his guitar parts?

I feel deeply honoured that our mutual colleagues and his family entrust me with the keys.

If you can close your eyes for a moment during the show, and feel transported by the intensity of the music or presence of the spirit of Rowland in the power of these songs, then I feel like I have done justice to Rowland’s legacy.

We have been following your music career for a long time and have no doubt considering you one of the best musicians that have emerged in the Australian alternative music scene in recent years. Your collaboration as bassist with Rowland S. Howard and Mick Harvey has given, we believe, a global exposure for your music projects and other collaborations.

It was a privilege to work together over the years, and I am deeply indebted to him for being there from the beginning of Hungry Ghosts, to eventually inviting me to record and perform on his songs. I’m very pleased that his fine taste has broadened others’ tastes.

At these RSH memory tribute concerts, you are, say, the frontman of the show, the guitarist who perfectly clones Rowland's guitar style and sound in a way that impresses by fidelity to the original, as well as vocalizing many of the songs, in a very similar voice tone. Your performance is simply magnificent, period. So, a technical question that is of interest to many musicians, but not only: What is the secret to making RSH's guitar style and sound so peculiar and unique, not comparable to most of the other guitarists? What have you discovered in all these years, used to his guitar sound, but also to your way of interpreting it, that may help in an accessible explanation of his loudly overwhelming sound, but at the same time romantic and literary?

Thank you, I really don’t feel like I do that much, I literally just plug in, close my eyes and hang on. Once the band kicks in, the song takes over & I kind of disappear somewhere into it.

As I said before, Rowland was an incredibly efficient guitarist, almost to the point of not really being one, in the traditional sense. The idea of having such a huge impact with the least amount of effort really is testament to his artistry and really what was so astonishing about his style. It’s what’s behind the fist that makes a punch.

His attitude and taste seemed to surpass his actual dexterity, but that itself is what elevated his style to be regarded with such reverence. It is hard to replicate because it is a kind of anti-playing, I suspect traditional guitarists would be intrigued at first, but essentially bored by the actual contents, because they can’t see/hear beyond notes.

In technical terms though, I recall him remarking to me once in the studio that the guitar always sounds best when the strings are openly ringing out, to try and leave as many open as possible. And it’s true, like holding chords is somehow compromising the strings highest potential.

This can be best heard in his use of stabbing and flicking harmonics, and the often unpredictable effect that can have. It really is a magic trick, that you can change notes without even holding the strings down, and depending on whereabouts on the neck these harmonics are struck, combined with enough volume/distortion/echo etc, all kinds of blood curdling shrieks and squawks can spark & flash out!
But it isn’t just about the appearance of his sounds, it’s also the sound of his appearance.
The actual sound often appeared effortless, and his virtuosity seemed to shine through his ability to hardly even touch the strings, just to jerk the neck around like a dagger! Like an assassin.

So, to follow on, the same approach goes for chords, if you can keep as many open strings in the equation - do it, and the guitar will ring out.

He really was a master at finding one or two notes that could be played throughout a song, some of his best solos only have 2 or 3 notes.

So many guitarists are measured “great” by their speed, neatness and accuracy of playing more notes than seem humanly possible, and although there is some validity to that, it always seems more like “sport”, the opposite is somehow far cooler! To my ears anyway. I’m allergic to sport.

The tremolo arm “whammy bar” is also a highly useful tool, and can bend notes into a different shape, again without holding down any strings. Notes can soar, then divebomb. Magic.

Rowland never really stepped outside of standard tuning though, except for dropping the E to a D on occasion. To be honest most of the time I suspect he had other more interesting things he’d rather be doing than noodling around on a guitar. “Jamming” is self-indulgent, “rehearsing” - a waste of time. Haha…
Hence what I meant earlier about him not really even being a “guitarist”. Minimum effort, maximum effect. He was much more than just a guitar player. The guitar was merely a tool, like a car or a zippo. (Both have lots of chrome, just like a Fender Jaguar.)


To continue on from his logic though, de-tuning the guitar can obviously open up the potential for letting strings keep ringing. On Mick’s tribute song October Boy, I recorded the “Rowland-esque” guitar part, mainly using harmonics, similar to his trademark style on Jennifer’s Veil. https://youtu.be/6gtSsO2N6uc

Rowland S. Howard with his white Fender Jaguar

To what extent is RSH's guitar style and sound a vital influence on your guitar playing?

I greatly admire his sound & style as you can tell, and what it achieved and added to our vocabulary and musical landscape, but by only playing like that you will only ever sound like Rowland Howard… The essential lesson one should take from it is Less is More, try to find the least amount of notes you can play 😉

My interest has, and always will be in experimenting, I like to use lots of different techniques in my music. I always try to manipulate and push a guitar past what it should do and to not sound like a guitar. I don’t really use or enjoy a lot of pedals that much, that often feels like cheating to me, I prefer to see what different sounds I can get from actually modifying the guitar itself.

What other musicians can you name as fundamental influences on your musical approach to the various instruments you play?

I have quite broad eclectic tastes in music, and most times, things other than musicians influence my approach. Dreams, movies, perfume, paintings, clouds, natural sounds. Birds.

I love gamelans, their almost atonal sounds and hypno-rhythms are beautiful and disconcerting at the same time. I love the numb glowing honey sound of a vibraphone.

Sometimes the guttural honk of a baritone sax can get me going. I can’t really name specific musicians who I follow religiously. Most old ethnic music and instruments get me going in some way or another, because it feels anonymous and foreign, like a portal to another space and time, beyond “Me”.

I love classical orchestras and classical music, but I also like orchestras getting messed up.

Henryk Gorecki can paralyse me. Put him in a blender with Harry Partch and some Silver Apples. Weirdilisations. I love doo-wop, I love rockabilly. I love Eno.
My next album is a live recording of a piece I was commissioned to do by the City of Melbourne on the Grand Organ.
The instrument in itself is inspiring.

If you had to choose only one band that is, or was, the most fundamental in your growth as a musician and music lover, which one would it be?

Um… either Beethoven or The Cramps, maybe… hard to say.

There are many remarkable moments of your live performances with RSH, especially the ones of his last year, before his departure, which are fortunately recorded on YouTube for all the fans, but a deeply touching one absolutely stands out. We’re referring to the moment when you play the Hungry Ghosts’ theme Sleep at his funeral. It was your funerary eulogy for a departed friend, and it proved very impactful for all the fans. Ten years have passed since then. What do you keep of most fundamental from this dear friend?


Hmmm, S L E E P wasn’t connected to Hungry Ghosts, that was a solo composition. I had recorded a version of it, (which is the version on my Bandcamp - https://jpshilo.bandcamp.com/track/s-l-e-e-p-1st-movement ) and played it to Rowland after our show at Mt. Buller ATP as we descended the mountain. After it finished, I looked in the back seat of the van, and he was fast asleep, I took that as a good sign, but we never spoke of it.

Apparently after we dropped him home, he told Genevieve (McGuckin) that he had heard my latest piece of music, and loved it. I didn’t know this until I was asked to play it at the funeral. The version I played on the day took on a far more sombre tone to the original, not only in part to how I was feeling I guess, but because I hadn’t touched the violin since our last gig together at the Prince of Wales. When I opened the case on the day and took it out to play, I noticed that the wood had split right up the back, like it had a tear in it.

That was the version that was used in Ghost Pictures’ Autoluminescent biopic.

Recently, on your official Facebook page, you shared the song Invisible You, from your excellent first solo album, released in 2019, also named Invisible You. What caught the most attention on that post was the description of a dream of yours in which you solved (in a humorous way) the mystery that guided the stare that RSH always had in his live performances, as if to contemplate in the distance something that only he could observe. And in that dream, he contemplated... an owl… which is always necessary to spell his name (Rowland). This song also fits him, although it may be for someone else. We assume it is a song dedicated to him, and therefore maybe the entire album, curiously released ten years after his departure. In what way did your autoluminiscent friend influence your music, composition and lyrics?

It is all interconnected. The chrysalis of that song was formed way back in 2006 when I made my first solo album, As Happy as Sad is Blue, some of the titles were from descriptions of the Bardo states in the death process mentioned in The Tibetan Book of the Dead. Rowland mentioned the Book of the Dead a few years later in The Golden Age of Bloodshed, and more recently Mick titled one of his albums Sketches From The Book of The Dead, though I doubt he would be aware of my references in my earlier work.

Rowland’s death, and my dear uncle David’s death, a few years later have had a profound effect on me. In recent years I started putting words to my music and following the dream, the song Invisible You finally took shape. That particular song is reflective of my relationship with Rowland & David – (but not the album as a whole, which draws from many and varied inspirations/experiences.)
I love dreams and dream symbology, and the line “Up there in the Light, Invisible You” definitely relates to Rowland and that fixed stare he had when playing.

In the dream, I actually invited the Owl to come and perch on my shoulder, in my thoughts. It didn’t, but I offered it to.

Interestingly, after having that dream, it was proposed to me that we should do some form of “tribute” shows. Perhaps that is the Owl coming to land.

If our assumption of the previous question is correct, Invisible You joins Mick Harvey's October Boy song as themes dedicated to the memory of RSH. In that sense, is there any intention of playing them during these upcoming tribute concerts?

No, we will only be playing the songs of Rowland S. Howard

What Pop Crimes, if any, did Rowland commit?

The only crimes I believe committed were against him. It is a crime to think he is only getting the recognition he deserved after his death. Musically & artistically his motives were always true - he rarely put a foot wrong, if only we could all have that same level of conviction.

Which are your Rowland favourite songs?

I really love Ave Maria, it is a wonderfully crafted song, which I am so pleased to have helped create. It shows a depth and maturity that only a 50 year old Rowland could achieve.

Crowned is such an epic masterpiece that really encapsulates all the elements that make Rowland so extraordinary. The sound + his clever use of the English language.

Sleep Alone is a beast. I do have a soft spot for Wedding Hotel also.

What is your fondest memory of Rowland?

Driving him around in my car.

Mick Harvey

As a musician and songwriter what have you learned with Rowland? And what have you taught him?

It’s hard for me to say. One is always learning from the people one is collaborating with - that’s part of the process. I guess more than anything I learnt, through observation, just how determined a musician can be in the quest for his or her own sound and style. Rowland really developed his style through 1979 and 1980 and found his own incredibly unique voice. Seeing that happen was definitely a learning experience.

From Rowland’s side - again, it’s hard for me to say but I did read one interview with him where he talked about working with me and that it was really helpful because I listened to everything in the recording rather than focussing on my own playing and instruments. I can’t know exactly what he may have learnt from me but obviously there was a healthy exchange of ideas going on.

Do you approach Rowland’s songs differently than you approach someone else’s songs? 

Not really, apart from the fact that I was pretty much always on the drums with Rowland which is only occasionally the case with other people.

Objectively, you are also the only musician who has collaborated on these two RSH solo albums (which will be deservedly re-edited next month), which in itself says a lot about their quality. Being a musician famous for the disciplined way you put to all your work and referred to as the organizer, the “boss” in the bands you went through, it was very different to work with Rowland on those albums… or was it a natural extension of what you already had done with him at The Birthday Party or Crime And The City Solution? Many of Mondo Bizarre Magazine's readers are musicians and it would be interesting for them to know a little about how this work process went.

Actually, Brian Hooper also played on both albums but it would be true to say only on 2 or 3 songs on each of them.

With Rowland I was definitely not “the boss”. I was not involved with Rowland’s business or management arrangements. Nor did I take on the role of producer with his solo recordings apart from by default, that is to say, when the musicians are running the process and making decisions about arrangement and sounds and the general approach while they are recording. Then, at those moments, they are producing it together. That’s what happens sometimes if there is a “passive producer” in the control room. Lindsay Gravina is great and took over things, especially as they went into mixing but for the most part he just let us work out what we were playing and how during the basic track recordings and busied himself with making sure that was captured. To that end it was probably similar to how we had worked together in the Birthday Party.

When last October, in your interview with Mondo Bizarre Magazine, we asked you to explain what differentiated Rowland S. Howard from other extraordinary musicians with whom you have also collaborated, you said at the end of your comment, and we quote: “He was a difficult and impractical man but also fantastically entertaining and a true gentle soul. It's hard to explain the complexity of these situations but I loved making those last 2 solo albums with him. I'm very honored to have been involved in those albums.” Can you describe the mood that guided your collaboration on each album (Teenage Snuff Film (1999) and Pop Crimes (2009)? Is there any curious episode that occurred during the recording sessions, never before revealed, that you may now expose to our readers?

Curious episode? Well, as I have often described, we entered the Teenage Snuff Film sessions as a duo. Brian Hooper was meant to be there but pulled out for some reason at the last moment. He came back and did a couple of songs later but it left us in the position of recording 8 of the 11 basic tracks as a 2-piece - just guitar and drums. That led to a very tight relationship in the playing and of course we had played together enough over the years to have a pretty good understanding of each others playing. When Brian came back we did Sleep Alone and Exit Everything, both of which Brian co-wrote and later they recorded Autoluminescent… when I was off on tour or something.

With Pop Crimes it was a different issue with personnel. Rowland was quite unwell and many, many hours were spent with myself and J.P. Shilo in the studio trying to work out how to keep the process going with Rowland absent. We did a pretty good job but ultimately the project required Rowland to be there… which he was enough of the time, in the end.

Let's now make a incursion further into the past, when The Birthday Party were a glorious band, completely above all the others that existed at that time. The guitar “game” between you and RSH was profoundly brilliant and unique in the history of underground rock, virtually impossible to replicate today in a musically globalized world, overly labeled and boring, where almost everything sounds the same and with little audacity.

We have lately become aware that you are the author of the Deep In The Woods guitar line theme, and that Rowland was playing it exactly as you developed it. Curious, because we link this guitar line, with all its cinematically sinister ambience, to Rowland in the TBP era, more than any other song in the band.

Can you tell us how this creative process worked among the three, as Tracy Pew (bassist) also came into the equation? Was it a fluid, natural and immediate process ... or on the contrary, intricate and with many changes over time, until it reaches excellence?

As with many things in The Birthday Party we didn’t discuss anything very much. Mostly we understood or already knew what it was we were trying to do. Aspects of our instrumental interchange developed quite naturally over time. Usually one or the other of us had the principal riff or musical figure and the other would find a way to intertwine with that. It was always very organic - we never really discussed if someone’s part was interfering with someone else’s as it would usually all fit together quite quickly.

Tracy’s style and delivery led to us writing many parts for him. A whole compositional style developed which was centred around the bass.

But with something like Deep in the Woods, that was the nature of things. There are other songs like A Dead Song where I’m the only guitar player until the end section when Rowland joins in with what is effectively a noise solo or Happy Birthday where I played the main guitar parts on Rowland’s set-up so it sounds very much like he is playing it but it’s an aural trick. Haha!

Will you be playing the drums, as you have done on previous Pop Crimes tributes?

Yes, I’ll just be playing drums. That’s my principle role with Rowland’s work post-Birthday Party.

Do you rather sing, and, or feel more comfortable singing, about Rowland (October Boy) than sing his songs, at least his solo albums ones?

Well, I’d be happy to sing a song or two but I’m on the drums so it would have to be a These Immortal Souls song or a very early work. I did the former - singing The Story Goes - at one of the shows a few years ago and played some of the Young Charlatans songs with Harry Howard and others and sang some of them. Aside from that, most of the songs are not really in my range. To sing them well I would have to raise the key by 2 or 3 semi-tones. Not much but enough to make a difference hitting the lower notes. So, I’m just playing drums.

We’re not sure of this, but due to the very careful viewing of the 15 existing YouTube videos by LJ. Spruyt, of the 2014 Melbourne RSH Tribute Concert, found that there is no live interpretation of your October Boy song, which is nothing more than a song of respect, admiration and love from one musician to another, who departed too soon. It's a touching song of love and friendship, written by you for Rowland, from an artistic point of view and with a “pointed” humor. Will this great song, so timely in the context of this tribute, be interpreted live, by its author?

There has never been a suggestion that I play this song at a Pop Crimes show. It would certainly take things out of the general concept which is to play songs which Rowland wrote. We don’t play any of the covers from the two solo albums either so I think that is one of the points of focus in the show, that it is Rowland’s songs.

What Pop Crimes, if any, did Rowland commit? 

Drifting. Not working on his songwriting craft enough. Otherwise that’s a bit of a silly question.

Which are your Rowland favourite songs? 

I don’t know if you’ve ever read any of my interviews but somewhere in almost every one of them these days there is a question about “what is my favourite song or album” by someone I’m connected with or myself. I always say that I simply don’t see things that way - I don’t have favourites. I really don’t.

What is your fondest memory of Rowland?

Nothing I would share in a public space like this.

Do you have any Rowland unheard stories you would like to share?  

No. Or rather, if I did or do I would save them for my book anyway - if I ever write one.